Wednesday, June 29, 2005

a call for your thoughts

Hey all...

well, we've been pretty quiet in here recently, and as I look back, I notice that its usually the same people talking. So, here's a request from me to those of you who either don't write anything or have only respond to what others say:

What's up with you? What have you all been going through? Anything you want to share with all of us, that we might share in your joy, your pain, or whatever? Any cool topics you want to talk about?

Really, what's going on?

Hope to hear from you all soon...

Tuesday, June 21, 2005

Some old, some new

Jason:

Recent conversation with God went as follows. Anything following parenthesis is my continued thought after God interrupted me with his answer.

Me: It's self-evident that I have person evidence you exist, but how am I supposed to show other (you exist when they might not believe you even can exist?)
God: Show them by how you live.
Me: Okay, that makes sense. What about defining (who you are? Even if they accept you might exist, they might think you different.)
God: Listen to you friends. Look to the Bible.
Me: What about (the problem of evil?)
God: The bible says I'm good and just.

As it stands, I'm going to stop delving into the obvious aforementioned areas of philosophical thought and simply do what God commanded. In any case, that means not bothering with Anselmnian definitions or ontological proofs. Aside from exegesis of the relevant NT text, I'll leave the work on how I understand God to be good despite how the world seems on the back burner because aside from that potential hole my thought on the subject seems pretty clear and as the Lord himself says, the bible attests to his goodness and justice.

In any case, this'll free me up to focus on more important matters. Exactly what they are yet God hasn't said (probably because I haven't asked). Feel free to respond in any case, as I don't think good Christian discussion will be a hinderance. :D

Brain:

I would definitively say yes. I know this from my own personal experience. I have a friend we'll call Nameless. Nameless was a friend of mine since I was little, but had issues. He had some disorders, and while he was okay at first the catastrophic divorce of his parents stemming form an entirely unhealthy relationship began a long series of problems for him. His appearence (which is the embodiment of nerd) made middle school and high school hell. He never really accepted his step-father, a if either of his parents were Christian they weren't at that point. His mother and step father had a child for whatever reasons has ended up very spoiled. Nameless went over a great number of deep ends. His disorders multiplied, and when once it was fun to do things with him it became impossible to do anything slightly better than him without an explosion cursing and malice. This was exceptionally bad because his two closest friends, me and my best friend, were both very good at video games. While Nameless had also been a master in his time, his degenerating maturity made it increasingly difficult for him to get any great skill in any game, and resulted in it being impossible to sit down and play any games with him any more, cooperative or no. During my time at college, he flip-flopped between bisexual and straight out homosexual, got obsessed with the darker side of furrydom and started claiming his true spirit was a lizard, and recently has taken to joining in and even leading some demon summoning activities.

Somewhere in the middle there, he not only crossed the line of likability, but made sure to put enough distance between him and it that not even the patience of a saint could mask any dislike for him. Honestly, I can't stand to be around him anymore, and can barely have a decent AIM conversation with him. It used to be that I could mention God or Jesus without him flipping out on me. Now he's completely closed to anything remotely Christian, recently clashing with me when I tried to presuade him that summoning demons was a very bad idea.

However, despite his complete lack of likability, I can honestly say that I still love the guy. I can't simply have been through with him what I have and not want to reach out and do something for him despite his extremely angry reactions to my attempts to simply lend a helping hand, let alone save him.

It certainly isn't an easy love, but it is a love nonetheless.

Conclusion:

Good night all!
For any computer geeks out there...

A simple question...

I would really appreciate it if everyone here would answer this. It is a topic that has been on my mind for a while. I just finished reading a really good article on I Corinthians 13 and on several other places in the Bible where we are commanded to love, so this topic sprung up in my head once again.

So, here's the Question:
Is it possible to love someone even if you don't like them? And, if not, what can one do to develop a "like" for a person, then to develop a "love" for that person?

Saturday, June 18, 2005

Jason: The DMCA has nothing to do with downloading mp3s. It talks about encryption, so the relevant problem is DVDs and region coding.

Open Invitation: So, there's gonna be a big yarn/knitting/crocheting convention in oakland. More info here. Would anyone be interested in coming to it with me?

Some good reads...

I was looking through a couple of sites in my bookmarks, and I realized that perhaps some of you might enjoy reading them too. Here are a few. (perhaps I will add them later to the sidebar)

Antithesis (AKA Christian CounterCulture)
- an online magazine, with new issues usually released every month. Make sure you look at the back issues! (Sadly, the author/webmaster is reformatting some of the archives, so you can't look at all the old issues, but the ones that you can still look at are excellent.


Real Life Preacher
- a blog of a pastor from Texas. I really like this guy, because he is honest about how he feels about things. He doesn't try to put on a "righteous" facade pharisaically, but instead is real about stuff. Just read it, and you'll know what I mean.

Tekton Apologetics Ministries
- a site dedicated to apologetics and understanding the Bible in its socio-historical context. I would say that this guy has been one of the biggest influences in forming the views I have on a few theological and hermeneutical/exegetical issues.

threshold (AKA Monergism.com)
- A site dedicated to defending the doctrine of monergism (go to the site to figure out what that means) and other doctrines of Reformed Theology. While I wouldn't say that I am very Reformed, this site is still quite informative and helpful.

---------------
BTW, I m currently studying Eatern Orthodox Christianity. (Those of you who know me pretty well know that I study stuff like this a lot.) Do any of you know anything about it, and would you be interested in talking about it? And would any of you perhaps be interested in coming with me to the Orthodox Institute on the Northside of campus (I've heard they have the largest collection of Orthodox books (and other texts) in the world.), or maybe to an Orthodox church sometime. I know I've talked with Jason a little about this, but again this subject has gained my interest, so, yeah, I'm just throwing this out there.

on Christian music

sort of responding to the post way before...

something my pastor likes to say every now and then is that

'in heaven, no one is gonna charge you $60 bucks to attend their worship concert,
and also there's no one who is going to sue you for not putting their name and
copyright on your power point slides, because of how dare you sing the song
that God gave me to sing to him.'

Thursday, June 16, 2005

Quiz stuff

I'm not posting my results because, as is often the case, I'm dissatisfied with the questions. The problem with selecting agree or disagree with a statement such as "homosexuality is the worst sin" completely fails to convey exactly how I feel about it. If I disagree, the immediate (but wrong) conclusion many might take is that I don't find anything wrong with homosexuality. However, if I agree I'm saying one sin is worse than another, which is something I don't believe.

Granted, this quiz seems to have been far more carefully constructed than any I've ever seen. However, it probably doesn't help me that I don't know much about most of those categories either.

Wednesday, June 15, 2005

A response to matoushin... part one..

Matoushin recently posted a long essay over on CalBHT. This will be my attempt to respond.

I'll first approach this as a philosopher (albeit a not very good one), then as a Christian.

if you want to read this, please on the permalink (the posting time) below.

Let's try to handle things as they come in order (ordered, of course, by chaos, ... whatever):

"... it seemed proper to me to try to understand God all the while understanding he's not understandable." A good place to start...

"A lot of my thought stems from (I think it's ) the Anselmnian definition of God which defines God as the greatest possible being."
um, I would say that this definition of God is problematic, and I'll discuss this a little later...

"Fundamental to my thought train is the notion that I and everyone I meet exist."
Ok, sure.

"In order for the universe to always have existed, the universe must be a necessary entity. ...This points out an important aspect of unnecessary entities, they must be created."
Why must always-existing things be necessary, and, the contrapositive, why must unnecessary things have a beginning?

That is, I understand (beginning) -> !(necessary), but I don't see how !(necessary) -> (beginning)

(! = "not", just in case...)

" Unnecessary entities can be made by other unnecessary entities, but somewhere at the top of the hierarchy there must be a necessary entity. ... So, if the universe isn't necessary, there must be some entity above the universe which is.
Why can't there simply be an infinite chain of unnecessary causes; that is, why can't there be a cause (call it A) for the universe, and a case B for A, and a cause C for B, etc forever? And, if you say that this cannot be the case because then the chain of causes would exist without a reason, then I would ask why it must have a reason.

This question, of why there must be a reason behind things, and whether or not something can exist meaninglessly, I would say this question lies behind much of the relativism and other philosophical problems of today.

"If we define God as the "greatest possible being", being necessary is surely greater than being unnecessary, and so we can attribute that to God."
A common response against the ontological proof for God is the fact that, potentially, the statement "god is the greatest possible being" has no meaning since there might not be a greatest possible being, just as the statement "L is the biggest number" (or, to be more precise, "L is the number of greatest magnitude.") has no meaning, since there is no greatest number.


"Now, God being the greatest possible being immediately lends us to throwing all sorts of great attributes at him. He isn't just good at loving, he is capable of the greatest love...."
A non-Christian could say that the greatest possible qualities are hatred and power, and end up with some wrathful God that has these two qualities to the greatest degree who likes throwing lighning bolts and tsunamis at people. What can you say to someone who asks why love is better than hate, or why omniscience is better than being able to forget everything, or... i dunno.

------
I was gonna try to respond to all of the stuff in the original post, but my mind is now toasted, and I am tired. So let me say this:

All of these mental games can be fun and stuff, but they have some serious problems too. For instance, a lot of this stuff can be used in apologetics, but it can also lead to some serious arrogance as you try to argue with someone for the sheer sake of arguing and showing yourself to be a better philosopher or rhetorician. And, besides, it puts the main focus not on God, but on your own mental and philosophical skills.

(I would say that much of the philosophizing that goes under the name of theology are not the results of Christianity but rather the results of Greek thinking and philosophy and its effect on roman culture and philosophy.)

Instead, I think there is a better place to start: Jesus. We need to look at Him, focus on Him.
In Him we will find reasons for believing in God. In him we will find what God is really like. In Him will we find the answers to why God made creation as he did, as you ponder about in the rest of your essay.

Jesus must be the center of what we study, of what we do, of who we are.

May we put Jesus at the center of everything.

Perhaps I am thinking I am seeing a problem when there is none. But, still, let me urge you to focus on God.

Perhaps I will respond to the rest of the essay at some future point, we shall see....

My theological worldview...

Seems like I'm Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan too.

Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 86%
Emergent/Postmodern 82%
Classical Liberal 64%
Neo orthodox 61%
Reformed Evangelical 54%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 46%
Roman Catholic 43%
Modern Liberal 43%
Fundamentalist 39%

---------------------

Hmm, not quite right, but pretty close...

Tuesday, June 14, 2005

Thoughts of mine.

Be forewarned, this is rather serious material, and probably organized via the "chaos is order" theory which states, well, nothing really.

Anyway, in my quest for a home church and an understanding of God it seemed proper to me to try to understand God all the while understanding he's not understandable. A lot of my thought stems from (I think it's ) the Anselmnian definition of God which defines God as the greatest possible being. In fact, there's likely to be all sorts of fragments of freshmen year's Problems in Philosophy scattered throughout this. Here goes.

The first thing to make note of is that we exist. This is arguable, but I think that very few people will bother to wrangle with me on that presupposition. Fundamental to my thought train is the notion that I and everyone I meet exist.

But why?

Instead of jumping straight to God here, I thoroughly muse on the other possibilities. We exist because of some event wherein the Universe was set into motion, Big Bang or no. Aside from the complicated fine tuning of various constant of physics required to birth life as we know it, another question arises. Did the universe exist before the Big Bang/whatever?

First let us suppose it didn't. If that is the case, we have an unexplained anomaly in that a large amount of matter appeared out of nowhere. It seems improbably that matter would appear out of nowhere without something behind it. While it is possible to just believe that the matter came to pass and label it all as a mystery much like many aspects of God, it is hardly satisfying to me.

So, instead let us suppose the universe always existed. This is almost as hard to cope with as the previous paragraphed subject. In order for the universe to always have existed, the universe must be a necessary entity. Here we must now qualify several meanings. A necessary entity is something that quite simply, must exist. An unnecessary entity is one that can exist, but doesn't need to. For example, while we may all exist, our existence seems hardly necessary, especially given contraceptive choices these days. This points out an important aspect of unnecessary entities, they must be created. Unnecessary entities can be made by other unnecessary entities, but somewhere at the top of the hierarchy there must be a necessary entity.

The question becomes one of the necessity of the universe. Is the universe something that must exist? The universe is necessary for our type of life, that much is certain, but is it absolutely necessary? Given the science fiction stories concerning the destruction of parallel universes, and all sorts of similar tales it doesn't seem too far out an idea that the universe isn't necessary. Even beyond science fiction, true scientists talk endlessly about how the universe will end. If the universe can end, then its existence isn't necessary.

So, if the universe isn't necessary, there must be some entity above the universe which is.

If we define God as the "greatest possible being", being necessary is surely greater than being unnecessary and so we can attribute that to God. If God is necessary, he could therefore be the creator of the unnecessary entity of the universe (or however many other ones he wants). Thus, not only can we ascribe that there needs to be an entity to have created the universe, but we can say that God must necessarily exist to do the job. One can argue for some other necessary entity, but I've never heard a convincing argument (yet) for any other one (they all really were just for another word for God) or for the necessity of the universe or a universe creating gizmo.

Exactly why I went into all that just now I don't know, since I'm sure all of us here are pretty set on God's existence. My philosophical leanings (leanings since much of the thought above isn't originally my own, but already tread paths I've been shown and found sensical) aren't the only reason I believe in God. But I won't go on about any of the other reasons, at least not now.

In any case, with God's existence squared away I move on.

Now, God being the greatest possible being immediately lends us to throwing all sorts of great attributes at him. He isn't just good at loving, he is capable of the greatest love. He isn't just just, he's more just than all. He's isn't just good, etc. In addition to more emotion related attributes, God can also be given attributes such as Omnipotence (if we have power, it seems logical that God could have all power), Omnipresence (if we can be somewhere, and to go out on a leg be in two places at once via astral projection, surely God can be everywhere) and Omniscience (miss Cleo ain't got nothing on God).

Basically, any attribute that can have greatness, God got to the nth degree.

Now, there is a hole here, and a doozy of one, in that for reasons we don't understand God created the universe and us despite our being unnecessary. If God is the greatest possible being, surely he more than anyone else doesn't need anyone else. I haven't well developed this area of my thought, that's about as far as I've gotten. Anyway, while we don't know why God created us, we know his purpose for us. Namely, to follow him.

Given this purpose, why would God create us so that some of us would stray and not follow him? Obviously with Omniscience and Omnipotence God knew full well before he did anything what the result was going to be. For God, this was like one of those movies where the Hero travels forwards in time and inadvertently saves himself from a danger without realizing it was him he was saving. Thus, he knows when he reaches that future point how everything will turn out. Except in God's case it gets a little ridiculous to try to fathom.

Anyway, with God knowing exactly how everyone would turn out depending on how he made them, why make people in such a way that they will turn from you or not find you? The best answer I've heard goes something like this.

It boils down to the difference between wooing your love and giving you love a love potion that makes them love you. It has been my experience that love without choice is somehow more empty than a love that require choice and even cost. In fact, a chosen love that comes at cost seems to always have been deeper than one that comes without cost. God could very well have made every last person on Earth follow him without fault or flaw. But God isn't looking for mindless yes-men. Through choice a genuine love is created and through cost it is made deeper.

If that is not the case, then God can not be said to be as great as he possibly can. Any creator who's creation fails its purpose must have made a mistake or given their creation a design flaw. To have done so would count against God's greatness, which goes against the definition we're working with. So therefore God created is to love him genuinely and deeply.

Now, all this requires a choice, and there is much debate over whether we are predestined to choose what we do, whether we have free will, or whether we really don't have a choice at all. My thought train has obvious problems with that last one. So we'll stick with predestination and free will. It is important to note that in predestination as I'm thinking of it, there is still a choice, but the choice we make is predetermined for us before we ever make it. This will lead to complication later on.

My problem with predestination will be exampled by an example my professor used. He had one of those battery powered toy dogs whose leash had two buttons for control. One button made the dog walk forward, the other button makes the dog bark. My professor told the dog, "Do not bark" while continually holding down the button which made it do so. He leveled fearsome threats at the dog, and consequences for its noncompliance with his no barking policy, but as he didn't let go of the button it just kept on barking. He eventually kicked the dog a number of times, and the point was made.

In the same way, I am not at ease with the idea that God can tell people to obey him, all the while controlling their choices so that they won't. In the case of people bound for heaven this may be passable as a means to making them better people and tools of God, but if he's pulling the strings behind all of the souls bound for the nether realms is God good? I can not answer yes.

This leaves me with free will in the face of God knowing the outcomes of all our choices. Here, perhaps, is the most obvious indicator of a paradox I don't think entirely paradoxical. God made us and knows exactly how we'll choose, but we still of our own free will make the choice to either seek him or not to. It seems like predestination because God knew before he made us how we'd choose. But he ultimately isn't controlling our actions because he is respecting the free will he granted us by allow us to exercise it as we see fit whichever course we take. It's similar to parents who have children leaving for college and afterwards (or straight away) for another life while still being rebellious. Good parents ask how their offspring is doing but leave their fate in their own hands.

However, this concept lends itself to other problems. There are a large number of people who have not and will not hear the gospel message in their time on earth. How can they choose God or choose their own will when they never learn they even have a choice? In order for my train of thought to not derail, everyone must before their judgment have one opportunity for making a choice.

I struggled with this for a while because there didn't seem to be any indication in the Bible as to anything on Earth happening to rectify my trainwreck. It was after a few readings of the New Testament that I stumbled across a verse that was helpful. It is important to note that this verse is translated differently in different translations. I haven't talked to anyone about the actual Greek (I think 1 Peter was in Greek, but the only other option is Hebrew, but either way), but while different versions lead to starkly different intepretations without context, here's the jist of 1 Peter 4:5 as I've noted. This is a possible point of distinct argument and disagreement.

Basically, Peter mentioned Jesus preaching to the dead. It's getting late and I should probably be in bed shortly so I won't go into an exegesis given full context of the passage and everything. Anyway, this was something that seemed relevant to my problem. I've been cautious about this point because I've seen too many people in the past take one verse out of context and screw themselves up royally theologically and in their very lives.

In any case, if Jesus preached to the dead then it is possible my problem is solved. Everyone who ever was, is or will be could all be given one last (or simply one) chance to repent before judgment. While I don't know the specifics, I know that the Orthodox believe that Hades is different than Hell in that Hades was destroyed by Jesus upon his death and that Hades was where all the souls of those who died had been waiting for judgment.

An issue with this last chance is the question, "Who wouldn't?" My answer is, a lot of people. Honestly, I have a lot of non-Christian friends who lives have redefined what it means to be in the bottom of a black pit, by their own admission. Their parents aren't necessarily inferior material possession-wise to mine, in fact some of them were far wealthier (some were much less so). Despite the obvious fact that I'm quite happy despite circumstances that come my way and other pointers that indicate that I have access to something they don't, there is a stubbornness with which people will cling to completely unhealthy decisions they've made. I don't mean to set myself up as a paragon of anything and set non-Christians into a generalization of patheticness (I've known my fair share of happy atheists and depressed, problem ridden Christians), but what strikes me is the way with which people will dogmatically stick to bad decisions and life choices and not only refuse to seek a better way but openly refuse any and all offers of help or directions to safer havens.

In a similar fashion, I think it is entirely possible for people to recognize a choice can save them but choose the wrong choice despite that.

In fact, the reason why I still think missions are important despite this "last chance" is because at the very least, hearing the gospel message or being exposed to a devoted Christian can soften the heart from such foolhardiness. Even if someone dies unsaved, perhaps their chances of making the right choice that last time having been around a good Christian than otherwise.

In conclusion, the end of my thought train relies more heavily on that one verse than I'm comfortable with. Unfortunately, finals came up at around this point (though some thought continued) and made me put aside scanning the bible for other possible references (not that I'm even comfortable with that idea, because it seems biased at the outset) or seeking more expert advice actively (although God graciously dropped opportunities in my lap such as the exposure to an Orthodox view). Other things have cropped up since then, but I don't have a good excuse for more recent procrastination.

In any case, I'm not posting this hear because I like to watch myself type or be yes-manned myself. While I'm not discouraging people from pointing out what they agree with, I'm much more interested in your unique thoughts on the subject and where you disagree with me and what major gaping holes of reason you see.

I look forward to hearing your responses. :)

Friday, June 10, 2005

Are you lonely?

Are you looking for that special someone, the one that God has chosen just for you? And I don't mean just chosen! Rather, sovereignly preordained for you!

Are you tired of dating all the misguided heretics around you, who wouldn't know a TULIP from a rose?

Are you hoping to find someone who enjoys long walks on the beach, dinners by candlelight, and long harangues about the dangers of pelagian theology in the modern church?

Well, Here's a dating service for you!

Sovereign Grace Singles
: Where predestination works for YOU!

(Big Fat Honking J/K!!!!!) (link from BHT)

Thursday, June 09, 2005

"One is the loneliest number. Two is the fufilled number. :)"

And three is just nifty!

Prayer requests...

If you have any prayer requests that you would like added to the list on the side, or any good quotes for the top of the page, please contact one of the admins (me or jason). For contact info, please check our profiles.

Tuesday, June 07, 2005

asking for some assistance...

hmm, i'm thinking about putting together a sort of theological questionaire, maybe for use here in CalBHT but more as just an exploration of the diversity of different views there are in orthodox Christianity? would anyone be interested in assisting me by maybe suggesting topics or even helping write it?

Random stuff to brighten your day...

Hmm,, you learn something new every day... I like the line " they learned that the faithful don't do all their shouting in church." :)

And look, we got mentioned in this post and the next one(yes, I noticed this a while back, all of you over at BHT, I just don't think anyone has mentioned it here yet...)

on a less serious note, here...

on an even less serious note, this and this are freaking awesome and and are my picks for this week's CalBHT Must-Read's (Yes, I made that up right now)

Ok back to seriousness, read this and think about it...

Monday, June 06, 2005

Is one really the Loneliest Number? News at 11...

Good fellow Jason invited me here following my sending him a link to some thoughts of mine I'd posted at my blog. It somehow seems fitting to include a link to the insanity that spawned my arrival.

For the vast majority who I am sure are not familiar with me, my name is Kevin Turner. I'm currently attending Messiah College down in Grantham, PA. I live approximately thirty miles west of Boston in Natick, MA. I am currently without denomination, though I was raised in first a Presbytirian church, then a Baptist, followed by a non-denomination that later became an Evangelical Free church. In my search for a home church/denomination I've been attending Dillburg Brethern in Christ near my college, while leaning heavily towards a liturgical tradition or Orthodoxy.

*deep breath*

You don't have to read very deeply into my blog to see that I love video games a lot, and that I struggle ever so much with being oblivious, ignorant, and opinionated. I like thinking a little too thoroughly about really small things. If my overly detailed discussion of whether or not one is the loneliest number wasn't indicative of that, I don't know what would be.

The video games I am currently playing are the Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker, Armored Core 3, Front Mission 3, Dynasty Warriors 5, and Grand Theft Auto 3.

Anyway, that's a large info-dump. Be sure to tell me what you think of my odd thoughts concerning the number one and it's loneliness.

Jesus and the Whore. (and other thoughts)

Brokenness
Think. (Black Dress, by The Normals. the Normals' website)
Reflect.
Love
Feel.
Live.

Hey All! Welcome!

Hey I just realized that we have some new faces in the Tavern. So, welcome to you guys!

It would be nice if you guys could introduce yourselves to the others here in teh tavern, but you don't have to if you don't want.

If youu guys want to know the rules, well, I'll work on that. There should be a link to them on the side.

Again, welcome to the Tavern. And, hey, why not... A round for the house on me!

Sunday, June 05, 2005

On music and Christian culture

The problem is not that profit is being made. And the problem is not with Piper or any of the other ppl I mentioned. (Well, maybe there's a problem with some of those emergent folks... (maybe JN?)) And the problem I have in mind isn't a personal one, but rather just one I see with our culture.

Let me take this out of the Christian context to better illustrate my point:

I have a problem with the music industry in America. The problem is not that profit is being made on music. That's completely fine.

Also, the problem is not with the fact that there are some bands or musicians whose music I don't particularly find enjoyable. That's completely cool too.

No, the problem (that I'm addressing right now) is that the music industry basically controls what ppl will listen to, and their focus is on profit, not on musical quality. I mean, it's the big corporations that determine what goes on the radio, who's having a concert wherever and whenever, which artists get signed, etc. And they make these decisions based not on who's good or innovative or whatever. No, their focus is on making more money. And, on a smaller scale, music stores like the kind you see in malls will choose what's easily available to the public based on what will make them money.

And, again, it concerns me that the focus here is not on the music but on the money.

Now, of course, if one looks, one will find good music. Maybe some garage band that most ppl haven't heard of. Maybe even one of the popular groups that make the music industry lots of money. But, that's only for the ppl who search after good music. For most ppl in America, they'll just be limited to listening to Britney Spears, or Good Charlotte, or J.Lo, or whoever else brings in the big bucks, not necessarily the groups that are good. (Not saying that the groups just mentioned are bad. Well, except for Britney. She should just go... away... :) )

So, how do we change this problem in the music world?

------------------

Now, hopefully, you can see the parallels btw this and the concern I have about the church and capitalist culture. but, if not, then click the permalink (the posting time) below to read the rest of this...

I have a problem with the relationship between Christian culture and capitalism in America. The problem is not that profit is being made on Christian books, music, etc. That's completely fine.

Also, the problem is not with the fact that there are some writers, theologians, musicians, etc., whose teachings or theologies I don't agree with (but who also stay within the boundaries of orthodoxy). That's completely cool too.

No, the problem (that I'm addressing right now) is that large corporations and the stores that distribute such Christian media basically control what ideas and messages ppl will be exposed to and will associate with the name of Christ, and their focus is on profit, not on what best serves the body and equips it to serve Christ. I mean, it's the big corporations that determine what goes on the radio or TV,
who gets published, which artists get signed, etc. And they make these decisions based not on who's most able to equip the church to worship God and bring glory to God. No, their focus is on making more money. And, on a smaller scale, stores that offer "Christian" products will choose what's easily available to the public based on what will make them money.

And, again, it concerns me that the focus here is not on Christ but on the money.

Now, of course, if one looks, one will find good teachers, good Christian music, sound doctrine, etc. Maybe some pastor or Christian artist that most ppl haven't heard of. Maybe even one of the popular pastors that make the stores and publishers lots of money, like Piper. But, that's only for the ppl who search after good Christian content. For most ppl in America, they'll just be limited to listening to or reading Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, or Tim Lahaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, or whoever else brings in the big bucks, not necessarily the ppl that are edifying to the body. (Not saying that the groups just mentioned are bad. Well, except for LaHaye and Jenkins. They should just go... away... :) )

So, how do we change this problem in the Christian capitalist world?